VS_Brad: FEEDBACK: Tipping Shows - 8/12/10 - News & Announcements

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News & Announcements: FEEDBACK: Tipping Shows

Created by: alberich

8/13/10 @ 8:52pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: breaking in, shaping up, then checking out
Posts: 970

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Anyone else notice it's always the same guys that live at this site that complain to any new change Brad or F4F offer? Guys get a life, no one cares what you think. You are only 10 out of 1,000's of guys/girls here. It will happen so get over it and stop crying.

If everybody elsa stays quite he has no reason to blaim anybody else who tells his opinion. If you are opposite opinion : claim it - but don't blame anybody for telling his own opinion.
Everybody is free to post about his own opinion and don't be pissed if somebody is thinking opposite - take it as democracy, not as personal and express your own thoughts w/o blaming anybody.

One point about "beggars" that I keep forgetting to mention is that we would likely add two buttons for performers:

- Block video from unregistered users
- Block chat from unregistered users (they could read, but not type)

This ends a lot of the nonsense right there. Further, the minute that a performer who is so inclined starts doing something interesting the beggars will leave and rush to that room.

I think we might all be surprised that this idea could curtail begging instead of increasing it.

Brad

would be nice if biggest retards and beggars would only be registered - but unfortunatelly is over all color. A yellow arsehole (maybe I should call him golden) is as brown and stinks same as a pale (white) or a grey one. Introducing your new rules would need to have a model to be able to ban all kind of retards independant what color he/she has.
Nevertheless: same as with ignoring button for greys - as long as people who won't respect any rules of human relationship (and there are many) - banning them for a time is austrich tactics. Close your eyes open them again and maybe they are gone. Happy christmas.

In my opinion opening rooms for public wanking will not help the majority of any models - more it will push this site to a down level I don't want to visit.
As I mentioned before - I also know sites which already have the suggested rules - but as a few members already told: the difference between Flirt4Free and all other sites is the "Flirt" - and not the beg because I tipped 1 token or credit or however you name it.
I'm still on here bc models are "human beings" and conversation is mostly more as "showme" or "open bobs". Even according to nowadays rules it is allowed to show breast (usually named canu tits or bobs) - but always same group of members tip - and after my experience the ones who tip usually tip the model for a great conversation or having fun in there room - they rarly demand open bobs. I doubt that the group of tippers will change - but freeloaders will increase.
Definately I won't pay their wank - what means my open rooms gift will decrease (and I'm sure I am not the only one)
So for me all in all it's a bad idea to follow other sites - being unique would be better

Just my drunken :twocents

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 9:25pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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Why not go up market rather than down market??

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. We are putting together some systems on the broadcasting side to help us attract and retain more top performers.

Few can afford the highest priced shows. Those that can, they have an amazing experience.

We can really only attract the top performers if the traffic volumes are sufficient to support them. This site is a living, breathing entity.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 9:27pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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Agree 100% though I have been on for a while and it is the relationships with the performers that got me to stay.

I agree with that statement 100%, but help me understand something (please) ...

If we were to relax the open room rules and give performers who wanted (not forcing anyone) the ability to earn money from tips how does that impact those relationships?

Is the concern that there would be TOO MANY people in the chat?

The begging argument is valid, but I think the tools I mentioned combined with the Premiere status of many top performers aleviates that in many respects.

As I said, please help me understand how a policy change like this would affect your ability to enjoy your time with your favorite performers.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 9:29pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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2) find and permanently ban anyone using a Replay Media Catcher to record RTMP .FLV streams ... there's F4F pirated vids all over rapid share, filestube, etc; many with sponsored links

We have two solutions for this in the works. One involves encrypting the streams; the other involves periodically flashing the IP and/or username on top of the video stream every so often (in open, private, VOD, etc.) in a non-annoying way but in a way that would allow us to trace it back to the offending user when we find these clips.

We actually have someone on staff whose job it is to get those removed so please send the links to our support department if/when you come across them.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 9:32pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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Bad idea all round. Flirt claims it is the 'premium site' umm a premium site innovates NOT duplicates.

All companies build off one another. I think we're a premium site with or without this concept.

Plus, few ideas are completely novel; taking a concept that is proven to work well elsewhere and tweaking it and making it our own has merit.

In terms of the models begging and/or the claims about something not happening for a tip; I just haven't seen that in the wild. I've spent about 20 hours over the past two weeks researching some other chats and I just haven't seen it. Maybe in the wrong rooms; who knows.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 9:39pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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You know Brad, I think perhaps your perspective is skewed, because you're not a customer.

I think you're right in some respects actually; I'm not a customer on Flirt, but I am a credit card paying customer of adult content. Private shows just aren't my thing at this point in my life (done it in the past), not seeking intimacy or a deep connection ... but I do like to see live content and I'm a warm blooded American male who enjoys a naked woman.

What would make Flirt appeal to me and get me to take out my credit card (probably would have to be a secret card so the rest of the staff didn't know LMAO)?

I haven't been here long, but long enough to see several decisions or ideas coming from the top that seem to completely miss the point and value of the personal relationships between models and their regulars. You see credits and cash, we see friends we have fun with.

Point taken. We have been discussing some of the fan stuff, etc. and may make changes. We won't always get it right the 1st time but we do listen and we do adapt. The fact that these forums exist and that the guy helping to run the company (me) is here posting in these forums is a testament to that.

I suspect you're on a quest to grow your business that will end up destroying what made it successful in the first place, because I'm not sure you even recognize what that is.

We're on the same quest we've always been on ... to be the best we can be and help a lot of people around the world earn a living while providing exceptional entertainment to members from around the world.

The friendships and relationships are a HUGE part of the business; I understand that and the last thing I want to do is damage that. However, how many friendships have been ruined (or just vanished) because the performer left to another site, etc.

It's funny, most of the posters in this thread know which sites I'm talking about and say that either they have visited or continue to visit them. They obviously have something you like ...

Brad

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Created by: alberich

8/13/10 @ 9:48pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: breaking in, shaping up, then checking out
Posts: 970

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In terms of the models begging and/or the claims about something not happening for a tip; I just haven't seen that in the wild. I've spent about 20 hours over the past two weeks researching some other chats and I just haven't seen it. Maybe in the wrong rooms; who knows.

Brad

Until now beggars didn't tip - and I doubt they ever will. Most members I met so far tipped for the fun they had in rooms - for entertainment and rarely asked for any show.
If they run as I do they tipped bc they enjoyed the time there and didn't have the creds for a pvt (2 min is just a teaser - so it is worth the time) - but tips can also shoe the appreciaion you have.
I not only fear but am certain if tips are for demands (is it a tip in this case?) it will not improve anything for the models nor make more money - but leads to boring rooms. Only topic in room will be "show me creds" on models side and "showme tits - I may gift you for it" on members side
Amount of PVT will go down - why should I pay for a PVT if I only have to wait for a certain time until somebody comes along who tips 2 creds for showing pussy and fist show?

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Created by: sweetchilli

8/13/10 @ 9:48pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 66

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it would change the whole dynamic of a room. Conversation topics will be broken up by demands and requests. As said before people have visited the other site and in those room there is no fun free flowing conversation merely models asking for tips to preform acts and a room full of lurkers wanting a free show while a small number tip the model.

the tools you mentioned may help alleviate begging to a degree but it won't stop registered members flooding a room and just sitting there in silence for a wank. Privates are a privilege or intimate time between member and model. Why would the site want to change what makes the F4F special. This idea cheapens that relationship and experience.

Yes some models are at a high credit per minute rate which may price some people out but these performers have earnt that rate through time, work and effort. Do you really think members complaining about price are going to be the ones tipping in rooms?

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Created by: alberich

8/13/10 @ 9:54pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: breaking in, shaping up, then checking out
Posts: 970

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It's funny, most of the posters in this thread know which sites I'm talking about and say that either they have visited or continue to visit them. They obviously have something you like ...

Brad

Am still on here and spending money - so something has had been different - and is that great that I spend money here and not there

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Created by: sweetchilli

8/13/10 @ 10:12pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 66

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yeah I visit the other site, then realise what makes this site the best and come back here to spend my money.

Brad you said you understand the relationships being important yet there is a massive difference between that relationship ending because a model leaves the site and that relationship ending because the setting where that relationship took place is no longer exists in the same sense it did before.
You say your not seeking intimacy or a deep connection so does that mean that no one should? do you not understand that some value intellectual and mental stimulation over purely physical? Talking to a performer and finding common interest and ideas make them a lot more attractive.
If someone wanted purely physical stimulation there are sites for that, flirt emphasised both, well at least till now it seems.

I'm wondering what the performers think of this idea.

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:21pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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would be nice if biggest retards and beggars would only be registered - but unfortunatelly is over all color. A yellow arsehole (maybe I should call him golden) is as brown and stinks same as a pale (white) or a grey one. Introducing your new rules would need to have a model to be able to ban all kind of retards independant what color he/she has.

Agreed. The only thing I really believe anymore on this topic is that has to be up to the performer. If they decide that someone is not fit for their room, so be it. If they kick out a potential new acquaintance by being over-reactive then that will be their loss. I just hope the activity of 1 performer doesn't turn someone away from entire site ... that's the rub.

Nevertheless: same as with ignoring button for greys - as long as people who won't respect any rules of human relationship (and there are many) - banning them for a time is austrich tactics. Close your eyes open them again and maybe they are gone. Happy christmas.

Agreed, you can only do so much with "tactics" more has to come from "strategy".

In my opinion opening rooms for public wanking will not help the majority of any models - more it will push this site to a down level I don't want to visit.

I agree in the respect that not all performers will want to partake in anything in open, in fact I would suspect that no more than 15-20% of our rooms would exhibit this behavior.

Assume I'm right about this (just for laughs, work with me) ... how would that change the site to such an extent that you wouldn't want to visit it?

Not being hostile, I just really need to understand how you feel this will affect you and your perception of the site and the models here.

Thanks!

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:29pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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but leads to boring rooms. Only topic in room will be "show me creds" on models side and "showme tits - I may gift you for it" on members side

For a moment, visit a few rooms that aren't of your favorite model and don't chat. Just watch for a minute. I do it in many rooms all day long and more often than not I see silence.

There are a handful of AWESOME rooms and most of these are for our most popular performers. It's truly a fun atmosphere, I get it. But they aren't the majority.

I really doubt the most popular performers and then ones that can keep the wrap attention of the room with their personality will *need* or *want* to take advantage of relaxed policies and/or tips in open.

Amount of PVT will go down - why should I pay for a PVT if I only have to wait for a certain time until somebody comes along who tips 2 creds for showing pussy and fist show?

If you agree with my analysis above, I'm not sure this is a true statement.

Performers, just like everyone on this planet, are going to do what suits them and their personality the best. Many performers don't need to draw more attention to themselves with nudity, etc. to build a lively room and entertain 1-on-1 clients ... BUT SOME DO.

Give those performers a chance to entertain in a different way, in a different pricing dynamic. Not all girls/guys speak great English or maybe have the most experience on webcam ... but they can entertain and stand-out for a moment and get some new people to give them a second look and maybe build some new relationships from that.

Think about it ... you guys know your own lists of girls you like to visit. They're going to keep being themselves (MY GUT FEELING) but for some other performers this could be an opportunity for them to use the site in a different way for a different kind of customer.

Anyway, my $0.08 (more than two)

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:35pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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it would change the whole dynamic of a room.

My feeling is that not all rooms would work this way. I don't see 100% adoption and I don't see it at 100% on other sites either. It's a performer-by-performer thing.

Why would the site want to change what makes the F4F special. This idea cheapens that relationship and experience.

You project a 0-60mph change and I'm not sure I buy it. I think us relaxing the rules gives some performers the chance to try something different; but I seriously doubt you'd see that behavior in every room.

The network would reach its natural equilibrium, just like it does now with the different show types and rates. You see performers change rate depending on the time of day, the # of models online, which other models are online, etc. Not all, but a lot do.

I've seen models change to Combo rooms when they have a few regulars online or to Premiere when the people in their room are sick of the grays.

At any one time you have 200-300 real people, men and women, from all corners of the globe logging in and making the decisions that are best for them each day. Giving those performers that want it and those customers who enjoy it an opportunity at a different kind of entertainment doesn't mean calamity, it means choice.

Again, I just don't buy the 100% adoption.

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:38pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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Do you really think members complaining about price are going to be the ones tipping in rooms?

Yes, the data shows this rather conclusively actually.

There is a significant group of people who only buy VOD.

There is another significant group that only use voyeur-mode or multi-user. (This one blew me away, I had never looked at it until a couple weeks ago).

For a good % of the people on this site the intimacy is not the objective; it's the experience ... but not 1-on-1. Not a bad thing at all, just something that isn't noticed often because those names are never in the limelight.

Ask any performer and she'll tell you about a customer who just sat in open and never talked and then suddenly took him/her for a 20-minute show.

Not everyone wants the 1-on-1 spotlight with a model.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:41pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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Am still on here and spending money - so something has had been different - and is that great that I spend money here and not there

Trust me, I appreciate the hell out of you and everyone else who makes this site what it is. We don't sell widgets, we have a community and it's always a delicate balance.

One thing is for certain though, the size of the community matters. I want Flirt to the be site not only with the most premium experience, tools, best customer support, forums, etc. ... I want it to be the site with the most activity. It is then and only then that we could truly be the one-stop destination for all sorts of live entertainment (voyeur stuff, houses, etc.) for members of all sorts.

Brad

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Created by: VS_Brad

8/13/10 @ 10:45pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,429

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You say your not seeking intimacy or a deep connection so does that mean that no one should?

Absolutely not, everyone should seek and get what their heart and mind desires.

do you not understand that some value intellectual and mental stimulation over purely physical? Talking to a performer and finding common interest and ideas make them a lot more attractive.

Agreed and for most performers that will continue to be their most attractive quality and for them being nude/physical or receiving tips will not be their objective or their tact.

If someone wanted purely physical stimulation there are sites for that, flirt emphasised both, well at least till now it seems.

See I believe they can co-exist. I don't fear a sea-change; I expect and equilibrium.

I'm wondering what the performers think of this idea.

Some hate it. Some sort of hate it. Some love it. Most don't participate in the forums.

I could use that stat for just about everything.

Brad

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Created by: alberich

8/13/10 @ 10:50pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: breaking in, shaping up, then checking out
Posts: 970

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Assume I'm right about this (just for laughs, work with me) ... how would that change the site to such an extent that you wouldn't want to visit it?

Not being hostile, I just really need to understand how you feel this will affect you and your perception of the site and the models here.

Thanks!

Brad

I can only speak for myself and for no one else - but what I appreciate here is that you can have a great "normal" or maybe "real world" conversation with some of the most beautiful women of the world. As it is in my case - beauty contains also having a brain not only two tits and a pussy - it's the overall what makes me want to have an intimate time with the model - and as the word intimate includes it is something very personal, very special - only between me and the model. If I would only be here for wanking of - I could also search the internetfor nude pics - I'm sure it will work. But what I like here is making friends - and over the time I found some, members (thanks to the forums) and also models. For some it is even more than customer/seller relation.
I appreciate if they are on - and as I said before if I can't afford a PVT (unfortunatelly Mr. Hilton or Mr. gates isn't related to me - so I can't spend that much as I would want to spend)
I try at least to tip for the great time I have.
If those models won't be on I would miss something.
As I mentioned before Flirt isn't the only camming site I know - but with their rules they are special - if you really checked the other ones (and there not only the top 10 performers) you know what I am talking about.

Concerning it's only a few who use this feature: If someone starts most of the others have to follow to earn their daily bread - I am not talking about the top ones - who may still have same earning. But Flirt isn't just Axana, Kalikatt, Sheryl Harley and and ( not to blame any of the before mentioned ones - they are on top for years and deserve to stay there, and there are still some more I didn't mention).
Most of the other models will have to use this new option when they want to make money - if they like it or not. So conversation will turn (as sweetchili already mentioned) only to the showme (same is on other site, which uses the tipping feature since long time).
Over the time it will be as it is there - stay in room - take your cock out and wait until sombody pays for your wank - or be the dork and pay for someone's else wank. But conversation and fun in the room - what makes me willing for PVT will vanish. Poor or even no fun in room won't make me want to tip even a half credit.
I'm sure all members looking forward a free show only by staying quite in the backyard of any room will appreciate your idea - but will they tip or pay for it?
I doubt it :twocents

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Created by: cribbage65

8/13/10 @ 11:09pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00

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Hi. Well, I only ever visited this site for all the reasons outlined above. Even an evening with no credits can be entertaining in the right room. And yes, I want it to stay the same. I visited this 'other site'. I didn't know it existed until my favourite model on Flirt directed me there. That's where she was going to work that night. And I saw how it works with all the tips and stuff. A lot of points above are right. Less 'normal' conversation. More model begging, most of whom looked uncomfortable doing so. Less 1-1 privates. And sure, if you want, if you wait long enough, someone else will tip for a public show and you will see one absolutely gratis. Not my thing I assure you and I don't want Flirt to be like that. But...why did that model direct me there? Because she was going to spend most of that evening on there. And what did I see? Of the 100 or so models online on Flirt, at least 40 of them were on this other site at the same time. I spoke to the models who I know who were on both sites. The opinion was unanimous. As one model put it, 'These days, Flirt is dead. Even for the old established models there. The new ones don't stand a chance. 'The other site' is now where we make all our money'. And there we have it folks. Reality. And why Flirt is considering this change and why it is inevitable whether you or I like it or not. Looking at it, some regular Flirt models now seem to have even stopped going to Flirt or at best spend 10% of their time here. I'm not recommending visiting this other site but if you're wondering where your favourite model has gone, she'll most likely be there. Regards,

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Created by: sweetchilli

8/13/10 @ 11:11pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 66

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Being the biggest doesn't always mean the best Brad. There's a lot of porn out there if someone wants to see tits and ass.

Of course a models regulars will still take them private but how is a model who is maybe in the middle levels suppose to attract new customers to take her private when the next model along is offering a dildo show for less than the cost of a 5 minute private? how does this help her if she doesn't want to offer a public show? What happens when she gets the notice she needs more privates or will no longer be on the site?

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Created by: funderbunk

8/13/10 @ 11:19pm (EDT) | UTC - 4:00
Location: Florida
Posts: 22

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I agree in the respect that not all performers will want to partake in anything in open, in fact I would suspect that no more than 15-20% of our rooms would exhibit this behavior.

Assume I'm right about this (just for laughs, work with me) ... how would that change the site to such an extent that you wouldn't want to visit it?

Because if only 15-20% of rooms are doing tips for show, that means 80-85% won't be - but will have to put up with chatters asking repeatedly if they are. If the tips for show room aren't segregated or identified in some way, it will be an endless stream of "will you show X for X?"

But it's more than just being annoying. Consider the idea that was posted in a thread a few down from this one - letting models send some free credits - or minutes - to members. I think this idea has more merit than the tip for show idea. I have a friend who does phone psychic work, and he has he ability to send his regulars a few free minutes via the websites mail system. I know Flirt is probably hesitant to give away *anything* for free, but I suspect a 30 credit gift would lead to a longer paid show more often than not. He has found that almost without fail, if he sends a regular a few minutes, it's just enough time to get started in their conversation - at which point they add more time.

So, what's the difference between the two? Simply that in the second scenario, someone is made to feel special (in a private manner - not some listing on some Fan game, not at the expense of others); in the tipping scenario, one person is made to feel cheap, flashing and showing for whatever is tossed their way.

You ask how this would change Flirt in a way that I wouldn't want to visit anymore. I can't imagine how it wouldn't.

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